奇跡を信じて、思いが届くと (opalsnow) wrote in jmbt_intp,
奇跡を信じて、思いが届くと
opalsnow
jmbt_intp

Astrology

I have tried this topic on some other INTP lists before and got absolute outrage. So I'm going to try it again here. Are there any INTP in this community who thinks that it might be possible to explain astrology scientifically? 
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Human brains are wired to sometimes accept outrageous superstitious fantasies as rational.

Best explanation I can come up with.
Actually you are dead-on! The human brain does indeed make up a lot of excuses (as shown by patients with certain lesions to specific areas of their brain) to maintain its so-called 'worldview'. This should not be disrupted or a human will feel disconnected from themselves and can result in depression or plain insanity if left unresolved.

But that wasn't the kind of explanation I was looking for.
Not related to anything, but I've heard several people theorise that a lot of this wiring is due to the mechanism which, very roughly speaking, makes kids fairly disposed to taking what their parents say at face value, and in general makes the members of a pack of humans generally trust each other until given reason to do otherwise.

opalsnow

8 years ago

zenicurean

8 years ago

opalsnow

8 years ago

zenicurean

8 years ago

opalsnow

8 years ago

zenicurean

8 years ago

Hmm, my short answer was going to be "no," but I like this equally well.

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Well, being raised in different parts of the world does not mean astrology cannot apply to you. A true astrology reading would take into account the longitude and latitude of where you were born and where you are right now and compare the planetary positions to make a prediction.

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opalsnow

8 years ago

Hmm. What is there to explain, though?
That planetary movements and positions might actually have an effect on human's cognitions, emotions and possibly wider world phenomenon such as which economic/governmental systems will prevail from which century to which, etc.

zenicurean

8 years ago

opalsnow

8 years ago

lumnata

8 years ago

Nope. I was quite into astrology as a teenager but I grew out of it. It was fun making the charts!
I see... so you don't think it's possible. But were the predictions accurate for you?

I enjoyed drawing out the charts too! Thought nowadays it's much easier with online free charts.

eryndil

8 years ago

opalsnow

8 years ago

lumnata

8 years ago

I've no idea. The possibility is there, if any of it is actually genuinely accurate anyway, and not a load of Barnum Statements.

Genetics is obviously going to play a huge part in anyone's make-up, personality, and to a lesser extent how the world interacts back with the person, but the rest could POSSIBLY come from a computationally vast set of conditions/chain of events that could be modelled much like the weather.

Not that I've actually bothered to try and understand chaos theory. I could be abusing the concept.

But if you can make an accurate enough model of something, you can use certain starting conditions and rules to make predictions based on them... right? I just don't believe astrologers are anywhere near meteorolgists, who aren't anywhere near accurate enough, even in the short-term. And there's no way in fuck we're gonna know all the starting conditions. Possibly.

To answer your question more accurately (now that I've stopped spouting and re-read it =P) I doubt you could explain what (I ignorantly assume) passes for most modern astrology scientifically, without defaulting to psychology etc., but I think it's likely that, given the resources, a system could be created that does the job to a fairly decent level. I'm just not sure humans are up to the task right now.

Oh fuck, I'll stand by my original statement. I don't know.

Possibly possible.
I have thought about this previously, and come up with the possibility that there could be some sort of "imprint" from the early hours of conception when things are sorting themselves out at a microscopic level, as opposed to birth when the physical entity is already well defined. This, of course, does not address what possible agency would be involved, just allowing that subtle systems might well take on the pattern of external forces, a bit like how iron filings would align differently depending on the size/shape of a magnet passing under a sheet of paper. Again, this would make astrology inherently "hazy", as nailing down the time/location of those first few hours of conception would be (except for "test tube babies") extremely hard to determine!


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By the early hours of conception, do you mean when the sperm first penetrates the ovum? Or when the zygote has became an embryo (since most of the important developments happen here, and many zygotes do not survive that stage)?

I guess astrology uses the date of birth because it marks the transition of the baby from its host mother to being an 'individual'. They can now make (limited by their motor and cognitive abilities) choices about what stimuli to take in and what not to.

I've heard about people drawing natal charts based on the time of conception instead of birth before. But I have no idea which will be more accurate, if it can ever be.

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Possible but not probable....
I came to this thread to see you get ripped apart. My blood lust was satisfied by the first reply, and now I can move on.
Huuhuuheeeheee at everyone in this thread who flipped out about astrology yet they believe they are a 'type.' What the hell really is the difference. People hate grouping themselves by signs (people who know NOTHING about astrology, mind you) but they will group themselves by an arbitrary type and have no problem with one but the other one is horrible to do? WTF.

I'm starting to think maybe I'm not an INTP because every time I visit INTP boards, I think everyone else is a moron who does not know how to use their critical thinking skills. I'm starting to get annoyed that I had a counselor who refused to acknowledge that I tested as an INTJ because maybe I AM one.

At least a few people could answer without stupidity by saying "I don't know," because that's right - no one knows for sure.
Well, the INTP group here in Livejournal is not as mature as the one in yahoo groups that I've joined before. At least they have given me lots of clear, concise, good arguments to amuse myself with.

I don't think anybody can be just one type. But I believe it's more like a 'tendency'. Just the other day, I tried the MBTI again just for fun and got ENFP. lol.

What reasons did your counselor give for not acknowledging that you're an INTJ and why do you want to be an INTJ?
The difference between type and astrological sign is that type is determined by questions you answer about yourself, while your sign is determined by the date of your birth. I know that you know that, but what is logical about a certain date determining personality? Our personality is determined both by our genes as well as by the circumstances of our lives. For instance, if I had been born in April (I am a virgo) I would still have had my life experiences.

As for your counselor, that person was wrong to "force" you to be a certain type. You certainly do sound more INTJ than INTP, because most INTJ people I have encountered are highly skeptical of the entire Myers-Briggs process, while most of my INTP friends find comfort and self awareness in it. Neither is the correct attitude, but it is a difference I have observed. Have you tried taking the test online to see if it garners a different result than INTP?
Myers-Briggs types are generally based on testing - empirical evidence - whereas astrology is based on... timing. It is not necessarily "illogical" to find absolutely no connection.
Yes, the moon has control over the tides. It isn't so far fetched that we human beings which are mostly water can be impacted by planetary issues.
I am interested to see, though, if there is evidence that the gravitational fields acting on one's brain can reasonably impact development. I don't think so, but I could be wrong...
As a professional astrologer, I feel compelled to reply to this post. I personally don't believe it is possible to explain astrology scientifically, but then I also don't believe that astrology is an exact science. I do believe it is possible to explain it philosophically, and, as someone else already posted, although there is no specific dogma tied to astrology per se - it is based on a philosophy just as many religions and other spiritual paths are.

So, my own take on the explanation is this. We are born pre-wired with certain tendencies, expectations, etc. (The whole nature vs nurture theory.) That being the case, we seek out individuals, places, etc. that serve as archetypes for the energy we want and the shadow side of what we want to reject. The planets and other visible cues in the sky represent the archetypal energies we are working with and how well/challenging it is for us to work with them. Sort of the whole macrocosm reflecting microcosm theory. By working with a natal chart, a person not only is able to see what lies ahead but, more importantly, understand what forces are at play and become more conscious in how he/she chooses to deal with them.

I don't know the how/why it works, just that it does. Of course, being INTP, I'm more interested in the conceptual aspect of it than the logistics. I leave that for the rationalists to discuss. ;) - Kimber
To be honest, I don't think there's a possible way to explain astrology nowadays, but I like to speculate, so here's my possible reason for astrology (I'll enter it on the personal traits part, since I believe that feature can't be told or predicted):

In one word: energy. Everything in this Universe posses energy at some level (i.e the energy that makes atoms stick together or that makes neutrons and protons stick together, etc.) Some entities can transform and even release energy (i.e metabolic functions).Also, gravity could be considered as some sort of energy (or force to be more accurate. So,what affects us is the energy and gravity of the planets when we are born, because as newborn babies we are still vulnerable to everything that happens around us, especially to all sorts of stimuly...

well, that's the only "scientific" explanation I could come up with, only for speculation's sake, but I don't think anyone can provide a full scientific explanation for astrology ^^;
Why are you so literal?
In the same way that a hydrogen molecule is a metafor for the systems it tries to describe, so is for the planet mars or the house the planet under consideration is positioned within.
The energy / interaction mode the symbols describe are not primaryly linked to actual dirtballs in the sky. Instead they are "strange attractors" in the mental planes; they are meme agglomerations and therefore also instigate certain modes of action/feeling/thinking/interorintrapersonal characteristics.

It is an elegant system of multi correlating symbols, like a 3 dimensional chessgame applicable on human bodymindemotions with 4 (elements) x 3 (states) x 12 houses X 9 planets x X number modes and points= a very challenging and interesting system/filter through which exercise your mind at understanding the filter you believe to be the world inside and around you...