Sue (orange_coat) wrote in jmbt_intp,


Hey, I'm a browsing INFJ.

Was just wondering if you guys could give me tips on how to increase Ti or whatever thoughts you have about it (as that is your dominant function).

It just so happens to be my tertiary function.

Thanks a bunch!

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1) Feelers can think, just as thinkers can feel. Ones type does not mean that one has a complete monopoly on one function and an absence of the other. My ex wife is an INFJ and I think she's a very smart woman and an adept thinker; she's just got a feeler type personality. I've always looked at type as more a question of style and approach more than as ability. Smart is as smart does; emotionally adept is as emotionally adept does.

2) Do you have a need to be someone else? I don't mean to pry but what's wrong with being the person you are? Is this an attempt to get a handle on someone else's perspective, per se?

3) If you're curious about what it's like to be more of a thinker type, wait until middle age when people's tertiary functions begin to develop and express themselves. Everything in it's proper time. What's your hurry? Why would you want to push yourself into some other channel if you're not ready?
Wow thanks for being so nice! I made some inquiries in the INTJ community, and my apparent NF-ness got me ripped apart. lol. Then again I have this tendency to "dump myself" onto people.. like an open-book, in a semi-desperate attempt to attain more accurate insight about myself.

Everything you pointed out is actually fairly on-target. Actually, completely so. I'm very much a feeler, but I also felt like being more T would allow me to be taken more seriously.

Alright, well. Maybe you can provide for me a lot of valuable insight? Here goes:
I fall into the trap of thinking I need validation from people in order to progress, and now all of a sudden I realize T's simply just don't seek it as much. This is part of why I was observing the pattern of how I think (as an F), to objectively look at what I'm doing/how I'm thinking.

I grew up in a super conservative/Asian family, and could not figure out throughout my teens why "working hard" or "discipline" never worked.. the more I pushed myself the more I lacked motivation and procrastinated even more. Then when I was 16 I became Catholic, and became obsessed with the self-sacrificing part of it (the psychological term codependency comes to mind). It was no wonder I couldn't study/learn/get anything done, because even though self-discipline is good I needed to realize that I wasn't a super-efficient robot.

Then I realized in order to be able to follow through with self-discipline effectively, I need to love myself as a foundation. My parents never taught me this, because ever since I was 6 it was, "You're old enough to know what's right, don't screw up" and I was often alone, so the trap was that I tried to nurture myself off of thinking characteristics. It worked when I was a kid, I was super-efficient, top of my class, dismissed validation from teachers as "stupid", and listened to the problems of my parents to help with solutions. So in actuality, I've spent all of my life trying to further my T. When high school happened and I *gasp* made friends, it was like a fell into a curse of excessive needy F-ness. My grades dropped, I barely made it through high school, almost anything made me cry (what happened, I think), and the most basic obligations seemed like a major chore. I often loved sleep and hated showering. Teachers found me to be competent, so they couldn't figure out why I wouldn't turn in a single homework sheet or listen to one lecture or read just one book.

I learned about MBTI just last year, however. A major lesson I've learned is that T's don't necessarily "recharge" using solely their T like I always (weirdly) thought.. they don't immediately go, "Friends? People? Feelings? Validation? Gah! BUT I LOVE WORK AND OBLIGATIONS! WORK WORK WORK! Sleep? Food? Fuel? NONE OF THAT! I'M A T, I DON'T NEED FUEL!" I mean really, it got to the point where I would beat myself up in high school for listening to music. I went through this phase where I'd force myself to listen to nothing but NPR or politics on the radio, but obviously because it was something I randomly shoved in my face out of nowhere.. I didn't understand any of it. I became discouraged, and all of this weird thinking of mine caused me to (strangely) over the years just be more of an F than ever. I am sure I have always been an F, I'm sure I was F when I was kid and I am sure I will always be F as my base preference. But for some reason I didn't have enough opportunity to balance it, as I'm sure a very radical F or even a very radical T would not be as well rounded a person.

Does that make any sense? The fact that I'm able to explain this right now, however, proves that I myself now understand what I wasn't doing right. I know that a T might tell me, "Stop being so F-ish, and just work. It's that simple." Well, the problem is that with the unconscious incorrect pre-conceived notions about T function I had after all those years, it wouldn't have worked. So what did I do?

Last year I finally gave up and took a year off school, and the fact that my F-ishness caused me to break down crying (heh) as my math teacher scribbled math equations (as of course I felt the need to dive into a hard math course) on the board was a pretty good hint that something wasn't working and I needed a break.
I know this is very F-ish, it's like I'm dissecting myself. I spent all of last year being okay with myself regardless, in this orange_coat journal I did a lot of introspective analyzing. Although I don't actually write in it anymore.

This miraculous thing happened last year. I discovered that if I have the foundation of LOVING MYSELF, I can actually function. The start of this year, I am incredibly clear-headed. I am motivated to finish tasks, I am motivated to do things. Last year I was like Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh, this year I am really efficient in my job. All because of the simple realization that I need to love myself. Healthy T's may have unconsciously had a good environment to give their T-ness a boost, but I think I had to figure it out for myself that reality is not so black-and-white. A good analogy I think of is that F-ness is like childhood, T-ness is like adulthood.. getting out into the world and being responsible.

This whole realization was all it takes, which is why I suddenly posted here with the preparedness of practicing how to exercise self-discipline (while having the foundation of loving myself).

Now it's just a matter of letting go of not dwelling on myself. It was substantially necessary at some point, but now that I don't feel like a zombie anymore I know that I can be disciplined. WHILE REALIZING that it's not something you nurture yourself off of, it's just something you do!!!

Does that make sense to you?

(if any of this sounds a little out-of-context or something, it's because I sort of copy-pasted a chunk of this comment I wrote and posted in another NT community, and now I'm posting it in this jmbt_intp community.)
"Do you have a need to be someone else? I don't mean to pry but what's wrong with being the person you are? Is this an attempt to get a handle on someone else's perspective, per se?" Regarding that, I did have a best-friend INTP in high school. She rejected me, and because we were good friends for 5 years and I had her to confide in about my weird family.. it took me literally at least two years to emotionally recover from it (from when I was 17-19 years old). Hm. Sometimes I think she haunts me.
You sound like someone who is very good at introspection. I've got a few observations on some of the things you said. Respect is something that an individual earns. I've never thought of it as something tied to type. Type is a way of understanding the ways various people look at the world and interact with it. It doesn't dictate your abilities. Some people got angry when the Matel Toy company made a talking Barbie doll that said: "Math is hard." Well, math IS hard, and I took lots of it in school. That doesn't mean that feelers can't do math or that all T's find math easy — I really had to work at it, myself! Some of the smartest and most respectable people I know are feeler types. Being an F-type does not make you immature, irrational, or illogical — it just means that you process the information you pick up about the world in a different way than T's do and from a different perspective than T's have.

I think validation-seeking is more of an issue of philosophy than type. T-types often seek validation from others too, they just go about seeking it in different ways than F-types.

Working hard and having discipline are important virtues, but if you haven't taken the time to identify what it is that you value, what's important to you, you won't be able to apply your discipline and work ethic to anything meaningful to you. It's hard to be motivated when you don't have a meaningful goal or understanding of what it is your hard work is supposed to produce for you. To get anywhere you need discipline, determination, and a destination. Without all three, progress toward acquiring values, either material or spiritual, is hindered.

If you love yourself, you accept yourself as who you are and appreciate your values and virtues. That doesn't mean that you don't have to work, or practice virtues, but it does mean that you understand that self-improvement and self-acceptance are compatible things — they reinforce one another.

There are plenty of mature F-type people and loads of immature T-types. Wisdom is not something dictated by personality type. Personality type describes various ways in which people interact with existence; wisdom describes how effective they are at it. Each type has different ways of interacting with existence, but any type can be more or less effective at it.
Wow great comment!

Regarding my lack of understanding how to apply discipline, I should add that I came from a family that was rigid/strict IN THEORY, but not in practice. My parents were too absorbed in their own problems/alcohol/medication/whatever to actually create any structure or parent altogether, but in theory they were rigid. They would convey all that they wanted me to be, but never showed me how. So I think I had to learn myself.

How do T types go about seeking validation compared to F's?

And do you mind if I add you to my actual journal? allthings_new , since you seem to be an NT who is familiar with NF. And I'm, well, still interested in learning to balance out my excessive F-ness *shrug*.

Yet maybe discipline and T are two different ideas.
How do T types go about seeking validation compared to F's?

Type is descriptive not predictive. Type can help us understand why someone does something or why they may have acted a certain way, but it can't predict what someone will do or what they will like in a particular circumstance. We're each unique.

Go ahead and add me if you want to do so. It's nice to meet you. Yes, I am familiar with NF's. I have an NF mother, some NF ex girlfriends, two NF daughters and a bunch of NF friends.

I'd say discipline and "T" are not interchangeable.

It's nice to meet you too. You have good comments, thanks for that.

Ti is logic


May 9 2009, 05:25:58 UTC 8 years ago

You are an idealist, intp's are rationals. we use logic to be utilitarian not cooperative. so while it may seem like we would be experts in Ti to help you figure out our tertiary preference, you would need to use logic as an augmentation of your Fe secondary function. We use it as a dominant function, and therefore it is not hidden by other higher order preferences, and is more full force as it were. People who are not logical can get on our nerves and visa versa.
Ti is a belief system preference based on logical correctness. It is about data, facts, truth, understanding of what makes the universe tick and everything within it. The aim is to understand the universe, and therefore be able to predict its course, and therefore be able to control it. It is not about cooperation, but showing the ends will prove the means were justified.
This is not how you should use Ti. You would need to use Ti to understand the logic of why people including yourself are feeling the emotions you are feeling. You are probably good at understanding what emotions are being felt by people close to you, but why are they feeling it? I suppose Ti for you would be understanding the triggers for emotions and therefore how to use (or discontinue using) these triggers to help people feel better.
You're exactly right, I do use Ti to understand people and their feelings.

I often wish I could be perceived as very logical so that I could be taken seriously, but I think I need to accept myself.

I also need to accept the importance of what I do contribute with my preferences/inclinations, and work with that. To try to be something other than I'm not may only hinder me.
The aim is to understand the universe, and therefore be able to predict its course, and therefore be able to control it.

This line made my heart skip a bit. \o/
My apologies for barging in and giving a reply to a long-dead topic. (perhaps not so dead?) My apologies to other board members for not being a member and posting.

I think discipline is a very SJ kind of ideal, rather than a T one. The idea that you need discipline for anything assumes that you think of life in such a way as to require it. I just assume that if you failed due to lack of discipline, it just means you didn't understand it in a way as to help carry you through. Or lacking motivation, since not everything is worth it.

Let me give you an example of what it is like. How do send greetings or give well wishes to someone? Or remember someone's birthday (especially when you don't remember anyone else's)? It's 4th and 5th function on the listing for both INFP and INTPs, but INFJ's seem to do it with such /confidence/, without need for reassurance.

Perhaps it is that T's feel less need for validation for their thought process and F's feel less need for validation for their feeling processes.

I don't know if it might make you feel more secure with Thinking functions, but it might help you connect with people on your feelings and help them understand that you are uncertain on your thought process and/or result.
Not dead at all! Not to me!

Those are good points. I suppose I have grown since this post, and have learned to better work with who I am.

I have learned that I can be uniquely who I am, but discipline is not strictly belonging to one certain function (while lack of discipline is not strictly belonging to another certain function).

Discipline and efficiency can be achieved by any type, which makes me happy.

I've also learned that truth is approached from many different perspectives, and that is OK.

I must admit, though, that I am nearer to the F/T divide. This makes me happy, realizing that I don't necessarily have to conform to all the INFj ideals either.

Type isn't a limiting label and a person isn't confined by that label at all, rather it is a label describing a unique starting point for growth toward balance (and everyone has a different starting point). Everyone is growing in different ways toward balance, and that is OK.
I think that is a very beautiful statment. :)

Just thought I should say that.